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Poll Results for the following Question:

Do you consider tui na to be part of the practice of acupuncture?

Results:

Yes
47.9%
No
52.1%

Total Respondents: 853

Comments:

Note: These comments are reproduced as written by visitors to this Web site.
They have not been edited for content, grammar, or spelling.


sbock!@partners.org
Yes Technically speaking, tui na is not acupuncture. Similarly, a rectangle is not a square. But the question is whether we should consider tui na to be "part of the practice of acupuncture." I believe acupuncture should not be separated from our scope of practice since diagnosis and treatment often require palpation of the meridians and message. Acpuncturists should be trained in tui and should be allowed to practice it either indepenantly or in conjunction with acupuncture.

Seth Bock, MAOM

Anonymous
Yes I agree with Mr. Strand. Lets face it Chiro's have a longer history with acupuncture than any other professional group in America. They deserve respect. Many chiro colleges have acupuncture programs where upon graduation you may sit the NCCAOM exam. Their seminar series while not having the indepth concentration that TCM schools do, prepare them to be safe and effective practioners of acupuncture. After all the main purpose of the board, any board, is to ensure public safety and chiros have accomplished a good track record here. Strand is right, we need to stop the hair splitting. To do this I think we should assure the chiros that were not out to get them and mean it. Let them practice their brand of acupuncture. I'm not afraid to let the market place decide where to go. We are all competant professionals weather acupuncturist, chiro, med whatever. We need to give our patients the right to decide who they want to treat them and we must do what is in their best interests not our own. Politics destroys what health care should be to patients. Can't we all work togeather for their benifit.

galaxykids@hotmail.com
 Dear Sir

Your web is not a sientific,training web,no use for students of TCM.
cordialy
Nasser Tabesh General Surgeon

briannhardy@hotmail.com
Yes I would like to thank the DC that is in support of what I said and for his persistence to continue with his education in the acupuncture profession...Having been on both sides, he does speak the truth about how much education and learning is still required to learn the skills of acupuncture in the various disorders of the human body...

There are a few of us who are DC's as well as LAc's who have been requested to do some teaching...Perhaps you that are acupuncturists can let us know if you would be open to several courses in neuro-muscle-skeletal disorders from a western perspective of treatment in combination with acupuncture treatment.

For example: Cervical Spine Disorders....The DDx, the orthopedic, neurological which includes motor and sensory and referral pain pathways...The treatment we would teach would consist of acupuncture, myofascial release, joint and soft tissue mobilization, spray and stretching, trigger point therapy, Nimmo, stretching and strengthening exercises as well rehabilitation...
We would consider doing a series of seminars for the thoracic, lumbar, shoulder, elbow, wrist, hip, knee and ankle...If you have any questions, please feel free to e-mail me. The more you know regarding these other various techniques it will help to level the playing field with all of those others that want to perform acupunctue...By the way, the course will be opened to LAc's and students in acupuncture school.
Sincerely,
Brian N. Hardy, D.C., L.Ac.


Anonymous
 What I find, as well as I am sure many of you acupuncturists feel is the individual that continues to put me down for wanting to go back to acupuncture school. The surprising thing is, he doesn't know me or how competent my skills are in performing acupuncture, yet,he continues to judge me.
Having the education that I have received here in the states and in China has been a great asset, but I also know there is so much more to learn...My motto is: The more you learn the more you understand you don't really know...Perhaps that is why there are so many specialities in medicine...I see in the future that there will also be specialties in the acupuncture field. In China, I had the opportunity to observe and treat all forms of pain, orthopedic, gynecology, peds, internal medicine...The more I observed and treated the more I knew there was so much more to learn...Perhaps our friend who continues to complain about my statements knows everything there is to know about acupuncture. If that is truly the case I must say I do admire him and would like him to be my teacher, master and confident....
all my best, DC

yinyang81@juno.com
Yes My answer is both "yes" and "no". In as much as you cannot separate acupuncture from Chinese Medicine, tui-na is a valuable part of giving patients control of their health. However, is tui-na a part of acupuncture - no. When you consider the fact that an MD with 30 hours of classes can call their "needle-therapy" techniques 'acupuncture', there is a definate need for differentiation.

I have recently graduated from a Chinese medical school and m very excited to become a part of a wonderful world of healing professionals. However, after I in my excitement logged onto this website and saw the messages posted here I am beginning to believe I was better off in the Marine Corps. DC, DO, DOM, MD, LAc... whatever you call yourself, it's only for your ego. This is the problem with our health care system now; no one wants to work together, and everyone thinks they're the only one who can "fix" the patient. It all turns into a pissing contest.

If a DC uses their training to help a patient, and the patient is happy with their results then WHO CARES if they went to school to understand Qi? Don't forget that this medicine was started by people who were able to see the Qi and where to access it... not scholars, or beurocrats.

Likewise, if I am practicing what I have learned as tui-na and put someone into a good stretch and their alignment is corrected (notice I did not say hard-set), and the patient is happy with their results, then WHO CARES?

It is the patient and their health and well-being that truely matters. I will never do anything I am not fully trained to do. I have (in school) and will continue to refer to Chiros, DO's, and MDs in the BEST INTEREST OF MY PATIENTS. That I can look at this website and be disgusted with the "professionals" I will be joining, with your hair-splitting and loss of ultimate vision, makes me cringe. I pray I never have to work with anyone so close-minded.

Respectfully, Eric Strand, MAcOM - soon to be LAc.


Anonymous
No If this person had all this training and is able under the law to practice acupuncture why is he going back to acupuncture school. If he can't learn it well enough under the chinese masters he will never learn to do it correctrly. I certainly admire his persistance. Psychologically speaking he must have a poor perception of himself and his abilities. To constantly try to educate himself with all these wonderful courses and still not feel adequate to perform acupuncture without even further training signals something amiss. Please don't misinterpret this. I'm not trying to put this guy down, just trying to let him self actualize. Like I said earlier I admire his persistance at repeated attempts to educate himself. I do take exception with his position on the excellent training of chiropractors to practice acupuncture. I also take the position of the other person that chiro's will always control their training in acupuncture. Let's let the free market decide by seeing who they go to for treatment. Acupuncture is not that hard to learn. Yes, you herd me correctly. Even the deeper levels are easy to understand when taught by fine instructors like Yennie and Amaro. Sometimes the universe refuses to spoon feed you and you need to seak out the answers. I hope this guy finds what he's looking for, that is, if he is truly looking.

Anonymous
No Dear Blow hard, if you have such prestigeous training you should be competant enough to practice acupuncture. Obviously there is some comtradiction here.

Anonymous
Yes To the person who feels as if he needs to insult me due to the fact that I take Dr. Hardy's position, here are a few facts regarding my education and practice...
I have been in practice for 8 years now, work 3 days per week, net over a 6-figure income...
I have been to beijing on 2 seperate occasions for 3 weeks each time and nanjing on 1 occasion for 4 weeks where I studied acupuncture and tuina primarily in the hospitals. I graduated Chiro school with honors and was very much involved in the student body...So my friend, insult someone else, we can agree to disagree...My practice will still thrive since I have put things in place and will continue to run as I attend acupuncture school...There are a few of us that want to do it the right way, please do insult us...By the way, the courses you have mentioned for DC's are very limited in nature compared to the exposure I had in China in learning acupuncture...I have spoken to several acupuncture schools and staff and know I will receive the same degree of education from those schools as I received in China due to the fact that most instructors taught in the teaching hospitals in China...DC

Anonymous
No Chiropractors recieve excellent acupuncture training. We are in command of our own diplomate programs in acupuncture. Chiropractors will always be in command of their own continuing education period. How cocky are the people who owe it to the chiropractors for giving them a profession, to think that they can waltz right in and start controlling another professions continuing education programs. I spit in those peoples eyes.

Anonymous
No Dear Anonymous "D.C." who defends Hardy Harr Harr, degree does not make the doctor! If you were a good student and listened to Amaro and Yennie, studied and performed all the recommended readings you could have saved thousands of wasted dollars you spent going to acupuncture school. I suspect that you are not studious or you would have comprehended the info presented. It is because of this reason that you were unsuccessful as a D.C.. You will be just as unsuccessful as an acupuncturist for the same reason. You could have 10 different health profession degrees and still be unsuccessful. Degree dosn't make the doctor. Diligent study, time, and the ability to apply what you learn makes the doctor. You have done none or you would have succeded. Just because your failure drives you to attend acupuncture school dosen't mean you should put down the rest of the profession who is extermely successful at practicing acupuncture. Yennie and Amaro have an oped door policy to their students. You have ample opportunity to consult with them. There is no excuse for your ineptness. We successful practioners gladly hand you over to the acupuncturists. We must purge our profession of inept practioners and traitors as the other gentleman stated!

alconliffe@yahoo.com
Yes In so far as Acupuncture represents Oriental Medicine or Traditional Chinese Medicine, then tui na should be part of it's scope of practice. We could regulate and certify ourselves.

Anonymous
Yes Wow, so much anger from this poorly worded survey. Tuina, like acupuncture are a couple of tools in the practice of Traditional Chinese Medicine (there is also cupping, moxibustion, guasha, electro-acupuncture....). Both have been in practice for thousands of years. And no, acupuncturists do NOT manipulate the spine, we move Qi and Blood with tuina. I don't recall ever learning spinal or chiropractic manipulation. I don't know why so many chiropractors are so angry. I have no problem with D.C.'s practicing acupuncture as long as they meet the training requirements as they CURRENTLY are set, not training based on acupuncture as it was first practiced in the U.S. (i.e. watered down and in its infancy). If your studies meet or excede the current standards and you can pass our national exams, then go ahead and practice. But leave our tuina as it has been practiced (and MUCH longer, mind you, than D.C.'s have been manipulating bones)to our scope of practice. Tuina works with Qi and Blood, the meridians, muscles and tendons. No acupuncturist is claiming to manipulate spines as far as I know. And we certainly aren't pretending to be chiropractors, unlike some chiropractors pretending to be acupuncturists. Both systems have their own origins and philosophies. So, we will keep tuina in our scope of practice because it has its origins in China, as does acupuncture, and is part of the medicine from China. And please, cut with the "DOMies" comments and racist comments about China's ancient culture. It is unbecoming of health professionals and further diminishes your credibility.
Tim Bugler, L.Ac.

Anonymous
Yes It looks to me as if Dr. Hardy struck a nerve with another DC over who should practice what...I myself also a practicing DC and who has taken Dr. Amaro's course and other courses of acupuncture that is offered to DC's can tell you in my experience that there is no way we can do acupuncture in the same manner or with the same clinical outcomes as those who have gone through and recieved the acupuncture degree. Due to the lack of training and clinical aspects that one recieves from those short courses in acupuncture, I have chosen to leave my practice and move to New Mexico to pursue my training in an accrediated school of acupuncture. I myself agree with the comments of Dr. Hardy even though I can legally practice acupuncture here in my state. Just because the DC's may have brought acupuncture to the states according to the person who attached Dr. Hardy's opinion it does not mean they we as DC's have the right to practice what we have not properly learned with the proper training...For those of you that are acupuncturists, please do not act the way the chiro acted towards Dr. Hardy...This is what tears our professions apart...For those DC's who want to practice the art of acupuncture, go and get the proper training as I will be doing...Your patients as well as yourself deserve to get the best care possible. It takes alot to leave a practice and pursue other avenues of healthcare, please don't degrade those DC's who are doing so just because you may be too lazy to do acupuncture the right way...In regards to the tuina question, I believe that LAc's should be able to do those things such as myofacial release, stretching and mobilization but should leave the manipulation to those of us with the proper training...
DC

gina@tibetantreasures.com
No I dont' understand why this question is being polled. Acupuncture is the needling of points; tui na is a form of body work. Both are unquestionably branches of classical chinese medicine. The question itself is suspect; it's like asking if baking is a form of deep-frying. It almost seems that whoever posed the question knows nothing of either acupuncture or tui na.

Anonymous
Yes Inasmuch as tui na is part of Oriental Medicine, as is acupuncture, then tui na is part of the practice of acupuncture.

Oriental Medicine - as certified by the NCCAOM
acupuncture
palpation/massage
Tui Na
Qi Gong
Shiatsu
cupping
etc.

Anonymous
No Dear "Dr." Hardy, You are a traitor to your own profession. Chiropractors are the first professional group of health care practicioners to teach and perform research on acupuncture. We have the longest track record of safety and efficacy utilizing acupuncture in America. We safely practice acupuncture every day and get many people well with it. How dare you call the acupuncture profession to arms when it was a chiropractor who saved the NCCAOM from bankruptcy with a $10,000 personal loan which has never been repaid. It was chiropractors who got the ball rolling to grow the acupuncture profession. You are sitting on the wrong side of the fence my friend. Chiropractors founded acupuncture in America. We are in controll of our own Diplomate training in acupuncture and will always be. All the courses listed below are learned in the study of acupuncture by chiropractors. Maybe not as you would like to see it on a course by course basis, but they are all presented. You should embrace chiropractic if for the only reason that fellow chiropractors got many of the initial laws passed so that you my friend or anyone could go to acupuncture school. My profession must have a screw loose. We were the first to use physical therapy clinically and we still use it clinically without reguard to it now being its own profession. We will continue to do the same with acupuncture. We were the first to utilize x-ray clinically and continue to do so without reguard to what other professions are utilizing it. You see my friend chiropractors have many firsts that remain part of the profession. We are the ground breakers and trend setters no matter how messed up our internal affairs are. It is people like you in the profession that are trying to strip away the rights of Doctors to practice what they have been practicing longer than any other health profession in this country that make me sick. You should be stripped of your title of Chiropractic Physician and a capital T embrazened on your head standing for TRAITOR!!!

Anonymous
Yes I agree with Dr. Brian Hardy that we as LAc's need to better define the scope of what tuina is and is not. I for one do not feel comfortable with my training to perform any type of manipulation as the chiro's do, but I do feel well trained in mobilization, stretching and massage or myofascial release work. I would hate to give up that aspect of my training, so again we should really define exactly what tuina is, at least here in the states...
I personally think we all should look at this from all sides of the professions, DC's, MD's, LAc, etc. and take heed to the comments that Dr. Hardy has mentioned...He's unbiased since he has been trained and can practice either profession and either way will not effect him or his practice...
J. Gibson,LAc

Anonymous
Yes Tui na activates the channels, and removes blockages
in the flow of qi and blood to stop pain. It is
another form of working with meridians, and as such is
part of the practice of acupunctu

steve@thevitalsource.com
Yes Oriental medicine, being a wholistic system since its beginnings, never separated out the various methods of working with the Qi. This means that whether it be acupuncture, Tui Na, Shiatsu, Tai Chi, Qi Gong . . . it is within the scope of the trained practitioner.

There might be a need for more specialization (which also means continued training) within the scope of Oriental Medicine. No one practitioner can be a master of all techniques, so we must find what works best for our patients and ourselves, and be willing to refer out when the problem falls outside of our expertise. Some practitioners might be better with herbs, some with exercise (tai chi . . .) some with Tui Na. Some may work better with emotional problems, some with geriatrics, soem with pediatrics, some with immune dysfunction. We need to work together as a community.

If patients are being injured (as happened in Texas), we must look at when and how the therapy has been used to see if this is an issue. We must look at if it is happening with only certain "types" of patients, and if it is our technique that needs correction.

We also have to be prepared for political motivations to limit our scope of practice from other healing groups (Chiropractors, Doctors, Nutritionists . . .) and from those who are mis-informed, who might feel that we are moving into their "terratory" so that we can create understanding and cooperation with them and also better protect our scope of practice.

Anonymous
 For those practioners who feel they can practice acupuncture effectively due to the 4000 hours or so of education they recieved in Med of Chiro school, perhaps who can tell me where in your curriculum the following classes were offered. By the way, this is only the acupuncture courses and not the additional courses in herbology and formulas...Perhaps you may start to appreciate the amount of time and study it takes in order to practice acupuncture the way it should be practiced...By the way...I should know...I graduated in both...
Brian N. Hardy, DC, LAc

360 CHINESE MEDICAL TERMINOLOGY
An introduction to basic Chinese terminology and characters useful in understanding
acupuncture, herbology and Chinese medical theory. (3/30) 361

FUNDAMENTAL THEORIES OF CHINESE MEDICINE
An orientation to Chinese medicine and introduction to the concepts of yin and yang,
5 elements, basic substances, organ physiology, etiological factors, 8 principles.
(3/30)

362 ESSENTIALS OF CHINESE MEDICINE I
In depth discussions of signs, symptoms and syndromes relating to factors of
exogenous pathogenic nature, and of Qi and Blood, and appropriate herbal and
acupuncture treatment.
(3-30)

363 ESSENTIALS OF CHINESE MEDICINE II
In depth discussions of signs, symptoms and syndromes relating to the differentiation
of disease according to Qi and blood, Zang-Fu organs, and combination organ
syndromes. Etiology and treatment principles are also discussed. (3/30)

364 ESSENTIALS OF CHINESE MEDICINE III
In depth study of signs, symptoms and syndromes according to Shang Hun Lun (Six
Channel Differentiation), Wei-Qi-Ying-Xue Differentiation (Four Level Differentiation)
and San Jiao Differentiation (Three Burner Differentiation), with appropriate herbal
and acupuncture treatment modalities. (3/30)

366 ESSENTIALS OF CHINESE MEDICINE IV
In depth study of signs, symptoms and syndromes according to Qi and Blood, Zang-Fu
organs and combination organ syndromes, with special emphasis on appropriate
herbal and acupuncture treatment modalities. (3-30)

365 DIAGNOSTIC METHODS OF ORIENTAL MEDICINE
A study of the four traditional methods of Oriental diagnosis, including observation,
auscultation/olfaction, inquiry and palpation. Study includes signs, symptoms, tongue
analysis and pulse analysis. (3-30)

742 ADVANCED DIAGNOSTIC METHODS OF ORIENTAL MEDICINE
Building on the four traditional methods of Oriental diagnosis presented in 365
Diagnostic Methods of Oriental Medicine, this course will explore tongue and pulse
analysis in greater depth as well as introduce additional techniques such as posture
diagnosis. (3/30)

545 CHINESE INTERNAL MEDICINE I
Studies of disorders of the respiratory system, various types of pain, and urinary
disorders. (3/30)

546 CHINESE INTERNAL MEDICINE II
Studies of disorders of the gastrointestinal system, neuromuscular system, genital
system, and hemorrhaging. (3-30)

547 CHINESE INTERNAL MEDICINE III
Studies of disorders of the head, sleep, cardiovascular system, blood stagnation,
tumors, and of psychology. (3-30)

548 CHINESE INTERNAL MEDICINE IV: OB/GYN
Studies of disorders of the female reproductive system, and studies of obstetrics
according to Chinese medicine. (3-30)

350 INTRODUCTION TO ACUPUNCTURE
A study of the art and science of acupuncture, including channel pathways, major
types of points, types of needles and their care, sterile technique, related modalities
(cupping, moxa, cutaneous needles, etc.), and the basic state laws applicable to
acupuncture students. Students make a detailed study of channel pathways and
acupuncture point locations of the Ren (Conception), Du (Governing), Lung, Large
Intestine, Stomach, Spleen, Heart, and Small Intestine meridians according to the
text, CHINESE ACUPUNCTURE AND MOXIBUSTION. (3-30)

351 POINTS LOCATION AND THEORY I
A continuation of Introduction to Acupuncture. A detailed study of channel pathways
and acupuncture point locations of the Urinary Bladder, Kidney, Pericardium, Triple
Burner, Gall Bladder, Liver, and Extra Points. (3-30)

352 POINTS LOCATION AND THEORY II
A detailed study of acupuncture point locations and their usage by anatomical region.
Covers the head, neck, chest, abdomen, back, and a detailed study of scalp
acupuncture. The course follows the textbook of the Shanghai College of Traditional
Medicine, ACUPUNCTURE, A Comprehensive Text. (3-30)

353 POINTS LOCATION AND THEORY III
A continuation of Points Location and Theory II. A detailed study of acupuncture point
locations and their usages, by anatomical regions, covering the Upper and Lower
Limbs. The course is also a detailed study of the Eight Extra Meridians, the internal
pathways of the channels, and ear acupuncture. (3/30)

354 POINTS LOCATION AND THEORY IV
A study of acupuncture points studied in the previous courses with emphasis on
channel and collateral theory and treatment. (3/30)

355 POINTS LOCATION AND THEORY V
A continuation of Points Location and Theory IV. A study of the acupuncture points
covered in the previous courses with emphasis on treatment. (3/30)

456 ACUPUNCTURE TECHNIQUES I
Lectures and demonstrations, with practice sessions, of the techniques of
acupuncture, including Clean Needle Technique, sterile technique, use of disposable
needles, insertion, sedation, tonification, and removal of needles; emergency
situations; moxibustion, cupping, electroacupuncture, scalp and auricular techniques;
self-needling. (3/30)

457 ACUPUNCTURE TECHNIQUES II
A continuation of Acupuncture Techniques I including a review of Clean Needle
Technique. (3/30)

458 ACUPUNCTURE TECHNIQUES III
A continuation of Acupuncture Techniques II including a review of Clean Needle
Technique. (3/30)

554 KOREAN CONSTITUTIONAL ACUPUNCTURE
An introduction to acupuncture techniques common to Korean practitioners. (3/30)

576 OMT 10: ORTHOPEDICS
An introduction to acupuncture orthopedic evaluation and treatment. This class will
examine the twelve traditional muscle channels, mechanisms of acupuncture in pain
and muscular dysfunction, trigger points and referred pain, and skills related to
functional assessment and treatment. (3/30)

577 OMT 11: STROKE REHABILITATION
This class will examine the various traditional Chinese therapeutics used in the field
of physical rehabilitation with emphasis on stroke rehabilitation. Acupuncture
techniques (including scalp acupuncture), and therapeutic exercises will be covered.
(3/30)

656 AURICULAR ACUPUNCTURE
Advanced techniques in auricular acupuncture. (2/20)

657 SCALP ACUPUNCTURE
Advanced techniques in the various systems of scalp acupuncture with emphasis on
physical rehabilitation. (2/20)

441 ACUPRESSURE I
Basic principles and techniques of the application of pressure to acupuncture points
to elicit a therapeutic reaction. (3/30)

444 ORIENTAL AND WESTERN THERAPEUTIC EXERCISE
An introduction to Oriental and Western Therapeutic exercise to treat disease,
traumatic injury, and accelerate the physical rehabilitation of the body. Indications,
contraindications, and therapeutic effects of exercise will be discussed.
(3-30)

541 TUINA I
Studies of the Chinese method of acupressure and therapeutic massage.
(3/30)

542 TUINA II
A continuation of Tuina I.

601 CLINICAL OBSERVATION I
An orientation to the acupuncture clinic for entering interns. Classroom sessions include discussions of basic diagnostic protocol, traditional Chinese medical
therapies, and the patient-practitioner relationship. Students spend a minimum of 40 hours observing clinicians and advanced students in their examination and treatment of patients. Prerequisite: 492 Cardio-Pulmonary Resuscitation,

602 Clinical
Observation: Procedures. (2/40) Note: Clinic can be started after completing the 5th academic quarter of the full-time schedule or the 11th academic quarter of the part-time schedule. Clinic takes 7 quarters to complete.

602 CLINICAL OBSERVATION I: CLINIC PROCEDURES
A prerequisite to 601 Clinical Observation I. All aspects of clinic procedures including:
Clean Needle Technique protocol and the prevention of infection from blood
pathogens. (2/20)

605 CLINICAL OBSERVATION IIA
A continuation of Clinical Observation I, with emphasis on incorporating diagnostic skills into a cohesive clinical procedure. Students spend a minimum of 40 hours observing clinicians and advanced students. Prerequisite: 601 Clinical Observation 1.
(2/40)

606 CLINICAL OBSERVATION IIB
A continuation of Clinical Observation IIA. Prerequisite: 605 Clinical Observation IIA.
(2/40)

607 CLINICAL OBSERVATION II: CASE PRESENTATIONS
Taken concurrently with 605 Clinical Observation II. (2/20)

611 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE IA
Practical experiences in the clinic, at progressive levels of responsibility, under the supervision of clinical staff. Prerequisites: 605/606 Clinical Observation II, and 607 Clinical Observation II: Case Presentations. (4/70)

612 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE IB
A continuation of Clinical Internship: Phase IA. Prerequisite: 611 Clinical Internship:
Phase IA. (4/80)

612L CLINIC SEMINAR: PHASE I
Presentation and discussion of cases attended by interns. No credit for Phase IB is recorded until the seminar is completed. Course credit is included in Phase IB. (0/20)

621 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE 2A
Practical experiences in the clinic, at progressive levels of responsibility, under the supervision of staff. Prerequisite: 612 Clinical Internship: Phase IB and 612L Clinic Seminar. (4/70)

622 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE 2B
A continuation of Clinical Internship: Phase 2A. Prerequisite: 621 Clinical Internship:
Phase 2A. (4/70)

622L CLINIC SEMINAR: PHASE 2
Presentation and discussion of cases attended by interns. No credit for Phase 2B is recorded until the seminar is completed. Course credit is included in Phase 2B. (0/20)

631 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE 3A
Practical experiences in the clinic, at progressive levels of responsibility, under the supervision of staff. Prerequisite: 622 Clinical Internship: Phase 2B. (4/70)

632 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE 3B
A continuation of Clinical Internship: Phase 3A. Prerequisite: 631 Clinical Internship:
Phase 3A. (4/70)

632L CLINIC SEMINAR: PHASE 3
Presentation and discussion of cases attended by interns. No credit for Phase 3B is recorded until the seminar is completed. Course credit is included in Phase 3B. (0/20)

641 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE 4A
Practical experiences in the clinic, at progressive levels of responsibility, under the supervision of staff. Prerequisite: 632 Clinical Internship: Phase 3B. (4/80)

642 CLINICAL INTERNSHIP: PHASE 4B
A continuation of Clinical Internship: Phase 4A. Prerequisite: 641 Clinical Internship:
Phase 4A. (4/80)







Anonymous
 I consider tui na to be a part of the practice of acupuncture. The definition of tui na needs to be more defined, and should include various techniques such as massage, stretching and mobilization techniques.
However it should not include any form of manipulation or adjustments to the spine or to the extremities beyond the normal physiological barrier which is accomplished with chiropractic manipulation.

I graduated from both LACC with my Doctor of Chiropractic degree and also graduated from Samra with my Masters Degree in Oriental Medicine.
The bottom line is: if you have not been trained adequately in acupuncture, herbology or manipulation it should be restricted from others to practice it.

Just as Chiro's and MD's think they have a right to practice acupuncture, it is my opinion that if they want to perform and practice acupuncture they should be reguired to go thru the proper education and training to learn acupuncture.
Also, for MD's, PT's and Acupuncturist's that want to perform manipulation let them also go thru the proper education and training in Chiropractic.

Again, its all about who owns the turf. Once again, it is opinion, that anyone should be able to practice whatever form of treatment they desire if they have undergone the proper education and training.

One last note to all you acupuncturist's, if we don't unite as a profession, become more politically strong, educate the media and public regarding our education and training we will eventually lose prospective patients to the other professions and may eventually fall by the wayside.

All one needs to do is look at the mistakes that the chiro's have made being fragmented as a profession.
We should all unite under one profession and association for stronger politically power for teaching and educating the media and public. We can all agree to disagree and respect each others right to practice acupuncture and oriental medicine the way we each would like, regardless of which techniques and theories that one has been taught...
Let us not make the same mistakes that the chiro's have made over the years...
Sincerely,
Brian N. Hardy, DC, LAc


Anonymous
No I think you insult westerm medicine with your esoteric bull. If you love China so much go live there. You will be crying to come home real fast.

Anonymous
No Why don't you DOMies just take over western medicine based on the premise that China is close to being the most anchient culture and everything stems from that. NEWS FLASH!!! You are not physicians. You are not recognized by any state as being physicians. If you have the "credential" and state you are a physician you are breaking the law and someone should turn you in to the state medical board for misrepresentation!

Anonymous
Yes I think that the tendency present in the western world of eliminating more and more essential part of Traditional Chinese Medicine and make it more westernized is an insult to the people of that land, who have used it effectively for all the life span of their culture. I not only support that Tui Na is part of the practice of Acupuncture, but that we should educate practitioner versatile in all aspects of Chinese Medicine (including Tai Ji, Qi Gong and Pharmacology) in order to create a whole and consistent strategy of healing.

Anonymous
No Is tuina a part of Chinese Medicine? Yes, but no it is not part of acupuncture. Why not just ask Webster or Oxford?

Anonymous
No Well, Tuina, like acupuncture is just one modality within TCM or OM. However, the real issure is should Tuina be part of our scope of practice? The answer is yes.

Spinal adjustments are a traditional part of Tuina that predates the inception of Chiropractic by thousands of years. However, it is imperative that students really learn the proceedures before just trying them. I myself, after studying tuina in school, apprenticed with a Chinese physician who specialized in Tuina spinal manipulation. Thus, I feel confident that I can perform the proceedures safely.

Perhaps what we need as a profession is continuing education in this arena. Then, it would be much easier to provide this service to patients with some justification. WE CANNOT LOBY FOR EXPANDED SCOPE OF PRACTICE IF WE ARE NOT PROPERLY TRAINED FIRST!

OM (or TCM) includes many modalities including physical therapy, spinal manipulation, minor surgery (look at any Waike book out of China or even O'connor and Bensky's Acupuncture: A Comprehensive Text), modern injection therapy (again look at Acupuncture: A Comprehensize Text), etc., in addition to what we normally think of (herbs, acupuncture, tuina, etc.). Some day OM practitioners will be able to practice the FULL SCOPE of oriental medicine, but only if we persist in being fully trained in the areas we want to practice. Don't forget, we are physicians practicing medicine. Anyone who thinks acupuncture alone is synonymous with Oriental Medicine, or that acupuncture should be relegated to a second class medical proceedure performed by "technicians", is just part of the problem.



Anonymous
No Tui Na is the practice of soft tissue manipulation conbind with oseous manipulation. For you DOM ies, oseous means bone. Tui Na includes spinal manipulation. Spinal manipulation cannot be seperated from Tui Na. Clinical acupuncturists, Doctors of Oriental Medicine, and Masters in Oriental Medicine are not liscensed to practice spinal manipulation nor should they be. Without knowing the underlying dangers a western diagnosis reveals manipulation is dangerous in the wrong hands. If we let the DOM ies manipulate the incidence of stroke, cauda equina syndrome, and other neurovascular problems will increase. MD, DC, and DO are physicians prior to learning the simple concepts of acupuncture. They have over 4000 hours of education in the health sciences prior to acupuncture training. They have been practicing acupuncture longer than acupuncturists in America. Their training program is excellent and they get excellent results utilizing acupuncture. They will always practice acupuncture, now and well into the new millenia. They have a historical precedent as to being the first to teach and do research in acupuncture in Amerrica. They practice acupuncture with ethics and safty and have the longest public safety record of practice in America. They got the initial laws passed so that even lay acupuncturists could practice. Know your roots and treat them well. If you cut the roots the tree dies.

Anonymous
No Tui Na is the practice of soft tissue manipulation conbind with oseous manipulation. For you DOM ies, oseous means bone. Tui Na includes spinal manipulation. Spinal manipulation cannot be seperated from Tui Na. Clinical acupuncturists, Doctors of Oriental Medicine, and Masters in Oriental Medicine are not liscensed to practice spinal manipulation nor should they be. Without knowing the underlying dangers a western diagnosis reveals manipulation is dangerous in the wrong hands. If we let the DOM ies manipulate the incidence of stroke, cauda equina syndrome, and other neurovascular problems will increase. MD, DC, and DO are physicians prior to learning the simple concepts of acupuncture. They have over 4000 hours of education in the health sciences prior to acupuncture training. They have been practicing acupuncture longer than acupuncturists in America. Their training program is excellent and they get excellent results utilizing acupuncture. They will always practice acupuncture, now and well into the new millenia. They have a historical precedent as to being the first to teach and do research in acupuncture in Amerrica. They practice acupuncture with ethics and safty and have the longest public safety record of practice in America. They got the initial laws passed so that even lay acupuncturists could practice. Know your roots and treat them well. If you cut the roots the tree dies.

Anonymous
Yes The tradition of Tui Na in TOM goes back thousands of years. It is quite clear that any attempts to restrict this from the Oriental Medical Practitioners scope of practice is restraint of trade, pure & simple, and that is in violation of the law and everything that the USA stands for.

If patients were actually injured by poorly trained Licensed Acupuncturists it is a case for increased educational standards not an excuse for one profession to monopolize a technique.


Lloyd G. Wright, L.Ac





Anonymous
Yes The question that you ask is misleading! Acupuncture is part of acupuncture. As you are aware , there are all kinds of acupuncture. TCM/Medical Acupuncture/cookbook Acupuncture(that requres weekend courses)and soo on!If you were to ask if Tui Na need be a part of Oriental Medicine practice (in the case which some do attent school for an excess of 3000 hours in four years)then ofcourse the answer is YES.This is a part of training that is taught in schools, and I am sure if one has not learned it , then one has the ethics not to treat with Tui Na. As we know there are plenty of other Oriental Modalities to keep one busy!! Just as I am sure that an M.D. who does not have the correct Acupuncture training will not practice for the wrong reasons. This can be a morals and ethics question as well.Good Day!

Anonymous
No Tuina is an intregral part of Oriental Medicine, of which acupuncture is another part. Both are related as being considered "external" therapies.

Anonymous
Yes Obviously Tui na is a part of Oriental medicine. Where else could it be a part of? However, tui na is not part of the practice of acupuncture. Nor is herbolism part of the practice of acupuncture acupuncture. Only acupuncture is part of the practice of acupuncture. Although, they belong to the practice of Oriental Medicine. Maybe the lawyers can clarify to where tui na is to reside, but if it is not within Oriental Medicine then they are wrong and obviously don't know a thing about tui na or Oriental Medicine.

dchambrs@hal-pc.org
Yes If you desire to practice acupuncture, then go to school for acupuncture. If you want to adjust spines then go to chiro or osteo school. Chiropracters have to go to school for 125 hours in Texas then they can practice in texas. While acupuncture students have to go to school for 4 or more years. Make MD's DC's DO's and all other health care professionals go to school to be licenced. Otherwise I fear for the patients. I chiropractor with 125 hours of training is a very dangerous person, and an MD with no training is a fool.

lmgraham13@hotmail.com
No I am a chiropractor and a student of traditional Chinese medicine (including acupuncture). Personally I feel that Chiropractors should not perform acupuncture without an acupuncture license and, likewise, acupuncturists should not perform "adjustments" or manipulative techniques without a license or proper training. I believe that when tui na is taught properly (as it is in China) then it should be included in a traditional Chinese medicine degree i.e. Doctor of Oriental Medicine. At this time, the instruction in tui na is inadequate (in my opinion) just as 100 hour certification courses are inadequate for chiropractors and their use of acupuncture. Just my opinion. L. M. Graham, M.S., D.C.

Anonymous
Yes  I urge all practitioners of Oriental Medicine to become politically aware of pending legislative proceedings in their local and state voting districts.
We must be proactive in educating both the general public and the media about our field of expertise: Oriental Medicine.
We must educate and politically assist those legislators who support our commitment to our chosen profession, and we must educate and politically challenge those legislators who do not.
My final statements are these; The Texas State Oriental Medicine Association should have sounded an alarm for assistance on both the state and the national levels within the Oriental Medical communities long before this problem reached such proportions. The national Oriental Medical leadership must stop their infighting and get on with the job of protecting our profession, or they will swiftly and certainly find themselves replaced by those who will. Ladies and Gentlemen, be sure about this, we may have come to our chosen profession from different races, with different educational strengths, and different goals but - "We all must hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately".

MIKEW@ALASKA .NET
No Tui na is part of Oriental medicine, as is acupuncture. But tui na is not part of acupuncture any more than physical therapy is part of thoracic surgery. Both are part of a western medical model, but being a PT does dot allow you to practice thoracic surgery. Texas needs to change the way the law is written.

Anonymous
No absolutely not, how many of use actually have any training other than push here or here.... leave this one alone or we will rock the boat and sink ourselves like other natural medicine providers have.


Anonymous
Yes Many infants and children have many health benefits related to tuina. It is a main health delivery system for pediatrics.

nospam@nospam.com
No Tui na falls under the category of TCM just as acupuncture is one of the facets of TCM. Depending on state law, you are enabled to practice acupuncture per se and not other traditional treatments within the scope of TCM. An example, moxabustion may not be allowed. However, people will argue that moxabustion is a distinct part of TCM.

The case in Texas is not an attack on licensed acupuncturist. I believe it is a mechanism to protect the chiropractic profession and the public from inexperienced practioners injuring patients without the proper diagnosis and workup required.

Just my opinion.

RayAZJazz@aol.com
Yes Acupuncture is that part of oriental medicine
involving the application of physical modalities to
effect therapeutic changes in the energetics of the
body. That could be the use of my finger, elbow,
an electronic/electomagnetic device, substance,
or needle to name a few. Acupuncture absolutely
invovles tui na. The acupuncture practice
determinant relies on either specific or general
terminology in the state practice act statue.
Unfortunately, the use of the word "acupuncture"
invites inclusion of statutory limitations of its
practice. If we are trained in school to be oriental
medical practitioners and not just acupuncturists
then the state practice acts should reflect that fact
and not fragment its practice into subspecialties
such as acupuncture. It should go the other way --
license general oriental medical practitioners,
then create subspecialties.

chusauli@aol.com
Yes Basically, it is within the scope of practice to do tui na as a part of our treatment. Although we are termed "acupuncturists", in truth, we are Oriental Medicine specialists, and as such, we can practice tui na and herbology, as well as moxibustion, cupping, dietary advice and qigong.

The article with which this questions stems from is arguing semantics and is started from some chiropractor that feels threatened for his profession.

I wonder if the chiropractor who wrote the letter feels proud for the trouble he has caused our profession? How would he feel if Osteopaths (DO's) attacked chiropractic a legitimate profession?

This is just another example of how greed, ignorance and anger can cause disruption in the world.

Anonymous
Yes Tui Na-massage is fine. But I don't want to manipulate a patients spine. I don't want to get sued if I injure a person. If the patient has a fracture or pathology how would I know. I don't know how to read x-rays and perform a medical diagnosis of the spine. Medical Doctors and Chiropractors get sued and they know how to read x-rays and perform a medical diagnosis. But yes I do believe we should do Tui na massage-Their is very little liability in it for us.

ChineseMedicine@iname.com
Yes I practice in the State of Florida and Tui Nah , rightfully so, is included in the scope of practice here and should be everywhere too.

Robert Mitlin, AP


Della_Lawhon@excite.com
Yes The reduction if the Texas OM practitioners' scope of practice draws attention to how government and the public evaluate our profession. I hope we can work past our personal viewpoints to understand what the Texas AG felt was so compelling about the chiropractors claims.

briannhardy@hotmail.com
Yes I consider tui na to be a part of the practice of acupuncture. The definition of tui na needs to be more defined, and should include various techniques such as massage, stretching and mobilization techniques.
However it should not include any form of manipulation or adjustments to the spine or to the extremities beyond the normal physiological barrier which is accomplished with chiropractic manipulation.

I graduated from both LACC with my Doctor of Chiropractic degree and also graduated from Samra with my Masters Degree in Oriental Medicine.
The bottom line is: if you have not been trained adequately in acupuncture, herbology or manipulation it should be restricted from others to practice it.

Just as Chiro's and MD's think they have a right to practice acupuncture, it is my opinion that if they want to perform and practice acupuncture they should be reguired to go thru the proper education and training to learn acupuncture.
Also, for MD's, PT's and Acupuncturist's that want to perform manipulation let them also go thru the proper education and training in Chiropractic.

Again, its all about who owns the turf. Once again, it is opinion, that anyone should be able to practice whatever form of treatment they desire if they have undergone the proper education and training.

One last note to all you acupuncturist's, if we don't unite as a profession, become more politically strong, educate the media and public regarding our education and training we will eventually lose prospective patients to the other professions and may eventually fall by the wayside.

All one needs to do is look at the mistakes that the chiro's have made being fragmented as a profession.
We should all unite under one profession and association for stronger politically power for teaching and educating the media and public. We can all agree to disagree and respect each others right to practice acupuncture and oriental medicine the way we each would like, regardless of which techniques and theories that one has been taught...
Let us not make the same mistakes that the chiro's have made over the years...
Sincerely,
Brian N. Hardy, DC, LAc

dgdc1@earthlink.net
Yes I am licensed in both chiropractic and (master's program) acupuncture. I took the a tui na course at my acupuncture school. I do consider tui na as part of the practice of acupuncture; but, with that said, it doesn't mean that I like tui na spinal manipulative technique and I understand the concern regarding injuries to patients. Here's an example: a patient lying prone on a table while the clinician held one of the patient's lower extremities in extension. This produced extension of the hip and the lumbar spine. The clinician proceded to thrust P-A over the spinous processes of the lumbar spine. I cringed when I saw that. The patient was gritting his teeth. But, tui na is so much more than spinal manipulation. In fact, I am not aware of any fellow acupuncture students attempting spinal manipulation. They only did soft tissue/qi work, which in my opinion, is the most beneficial and largest component of tui na. I think that chiropractic should be the model for spinal manipulation for both safety and efficacy. It is becoming increasingly popular in Asia, especially Japan and Taiwan. People overseas are realizing that there is a difference between chiropractic and tui na and they are really liking chiropractic for spinal manipulation.

noaram@bezeqint.net
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